I couldn’t agree more. Some SF, sure, but certainly not all. I don’t want a ‘one size fits all’ story structure in any genre, especially not sci fi.

The point I was trying, probably not effectively, to make is that many times I’ve read people’s thoughts/frustrations about gender and race issues in genre fiction and what they say comes off sounding like a quote system is exactly what they are advocating. They are not, but their lack of any real solutions to an issue that bothers them comes across sounding like they are asking for someone to step in and force equality. Where I live there are all kinds of different people, and I don’t have any problem with well rounded characters of either genre or any race…I just want them to be written by the hand of a skilled author who does this because it is a part of the story they are wanting to tell, not because they feel some external pressure to do so.

I was reading something about gender issues and female authors on Liz Williams’ site today and it was one of the more well reasoned posts I’ve read about this issue. It wasn’t just complaining about an issue and moving on. It, and the comments in the post, were a really good start to this conversation, in my opinion.

thanks for coming back on that.

One thing to consider, I think, is that it is difficult for an author to write a character who is not ‘them’. I personally do try: I imagine myself as someone else I know, how I believe they’d react, etc and then try to be them while writing.

I knew Dr. Asimov a bit, having the opportunity to hang with him at numerous conventions (lunch even on one memorable occasion), listened to him speak live quite a number of times. I was much younger back then, so everything I saw and heard was filtered through rather naive eyes and ears, but I found him to be very personable, very caring, sensitive and not at all disposed to (conscious) prejudice. (He sure did know how to play the dirty old man though and let me tell you, dirty old men with general public acceptance and a twinkle in their eye can get away with an awful lot. I know that on the few occasions when I’ve put my Ike-as-Dirty-Old-Man hat on, I was doing schtick – but I can only say that I believe that Asimov was doing the same – playing a fun routine and not being serious. Others played along and seemed to enjoy the show, but I’ve never had the opportunity to ask them if they played along because they were playing along, or because they were too intimidated, over-awed or whatever to object.)

I’ll have to re-read Robots of Dawn, which I’ll do shortly, and get back to you on my opinion of that scene.

I too think that Jetse has gone a bit astray; only time will tell though.

Carl V., I think it’s a bit of a strawman to suggest that what people are asking for is some kind of SF quota system for the depiction of women and people of different races to the sacrifice of story (Ben Bova appeared to do that in Mars Life and it fell flat for me). What I would like, and what I’ve read many other people suggest, is that more authors consider including well-rounded characters who don’t look like them. I don’t know where you live, but where I do there are people of different skin colors and ethnicities running businesses, in the military, making art and the like. Women are doing that stuff too. Depicting a future where only white men are doing interesting things ignores the fact that that isn’t even the case in the present.

But I don’t really agree with what Jetse wrote. Science fiction, like all fiction, is much better at representing a variety of characters than it used to be. It could definitely do better, but that doesn’t mean it should die now. And the idea that SF should only focus on the optimistic and propose solutions to mankind’s for the future makes me cringe.

It is interesting that Podkayne of Mars is mentioned. I just read that last month and really enjoyed it. In this book and in the short story Menace from Earth, Heinlein, given the time period these were written in, does an admirable job in portraying a strong teen female protagonist. I

I have no problem with SF being equitable across the board, I just don’t want story to be sacrificed for pressure to make sure that bookshelves are stocked with equal numbers of books representing all races, genders, etc. If it gets that way because authors choose to tell those stories, fantastic!!! Conversely, I don’t want to be cheated out of the opportunity to read a really good story because an editor or publisher chooses that it is more profitable to put a novel by a white male vs. a woman or person of color on the store shelves.

I think you’re probably referring to Naked Sun and, if I remember correctly (been a while) the woman was a ’spacer’ woman. Again, if I remember correctly, the scene you speak of contrasts Earth’s rather hidebound and traditionalist culture with Aurora’s more equitable one – and a comment on the (possible) effect of population on such issues.

Of course, that could be entirely erroneous memory….

I know, for myself, I had no hesitancy over reading and enjoying, say, Podkayne of Mars as much as I did Starship Troopers, and I think I read Joanna Russ’ The Female Man immediately after reading Spinrad’s The Iron Dream (if ever there was a “celebration” of macho mystique…not a single woman appears in that book, ever);

I’m conscious of sex/orientation/race/religion only when the author bothers to point it out to me.

Most of the early classics were written for a market that was decidedly all male, all white (or so the publisher’s presumed); most of it was written and published during eras in which ‘boys played with rocket ships and girls played with dolls’. I hear your point and it is a valid one, but I don’t really think it is fair to hold “ancient” works accountable for not living up to new sensibilities.

Is it really my white, male (middle class, jewish, short) experience that allows me to not have a problem with a story when the main character is, say, a lesbian of color, or a female pope?

I can say I’ve never put a story down because of the identity of the characters, nor of the author (tho I do avoid certain authors due to politics). Not even Fred Pohl’s Day Million made me squick.

I think one of the things that you are missing is that many SF stories – especially the “classics” – are so heavily focused on the experiences of white men that those of us who aren’t can feel left out. I am a woman, and I want to experience wonder and adventure and not just be in charge of the cooking and housekeeping and child rearing and sexual needs of the “real” adventurers.

Back in the late 80s, when I was in a heavy Asimov phase, it was like a slap in the face to read a passage in one of the robot novels where Elijah Bailey is taken by surprise that one of his superiors in the police force was a woman – a woman who is described in not particularly flattering terms – and this was a novel written in the 80s. That wasn’t the future of my imagination.