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	<title>Comments on: By Popular Request &#8211; A. Bertram Chandler and More Harlan Ellison</title>
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	<link>http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/2008/11/by-popular-request-a-bertram-chandler-and-more-harlan-ellison/</link>
	<description>Science Fiction For Old Farts</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/2008/11/by-popular-request-a-bertram-chandler-and-more-harlan-ellison/comment-page-1/#comment-6118</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/?p=3539#comment-6118</guid>
		<description>Sunday I watched WALL-E with some friends.  The first half is like a silent movie with little or no dialog.  It&#039;s all science fiction.  I mean chock full of science fictional ideas. Now WALL-E is a movie aimed at little kids.  The movie makers made no effort what-so-ever to explain things. I&#039;ve talked to mothers with 4 and 5 year-olds who have seen this film, and the kids didn&#039;t complain about not understanding what was going on.  I&#039;m guessing they have been bombarded with science fictional ideas all their life, so even at a tender age of 5, this stuff is not new.

I have met plenty of people who were not science fiction fans like us, but who talk with the assumption that manned exploration of the galaxy is destined to happen.  I&#039;ve even had young people ask me when is NASA going to build spacecraft like the ones in Star Trek and Star Wars.

I can&#039;t help but feel that this is a belief system like the belief in life after death or heaven.  Just because people haven&#039;t made a formal religion out of it doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s not a belief system.  People believe in ghosts and angels and fairies, so why not galactic civilizations or intelligent robots?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunday I watched WALL-E with some friends.  The first half is like a silent movie with little or no dialog.  It&#8217;s all science fiction.  I mean chock full of science fictional ideas. Now WALL-E is a movie aimed at little kids.  The movie makers made no effort what-so-ever to explain things. I&#8217;ve talked to mothers with 4 and 5 year-olds who have seen this film, and the kids didn&#8217;t complain about not understanding what was going on.  I&#8217;m guessing they have been bombarded with science fictional ideas all their life, so even at a tender age of 5, this stuff is not new.</p>
<p>I have met plenty of people who were not science fiction fans like us, but who talk with the assumption that manned exploration of the galaxy is destined to happen.  I&#8217;ve even had young people ask me when is NASA going to build spacecraft like the ones in Star Trek and Star Wars.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t help but feel that this is a belief system like the belief in life after death or heaven.  Just because people haven&#8217;t made a formal religion out of it doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s not a belief system.  People believe in ghosts and angels and fairies, so why not galactic civilizations or intelligent robots?</p>
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		<title>By: What Is Science Fiction Starlinks, Value Added &#124; Mike Brotherton: SF Writer</title>
		<link>http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/2008/11/by-popular-request-a-bertram-chandler-and-more-harlan-ellison/comment-page-1/#comment-6117</link>
		<dc:creator>What Is Science Fiction Starlinks, Value Added &#124; Mike Brotherton: SF Writer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/?p=3539#comment-6117</guid>
		<description>[...] &#124; Mike Brotherton: SF Writer on Science in Science FictionMeredith on Awesome Meteor Over AlbertaBy Popular Request - A. Bertram Chandler and More Harlan Ellison &#124; The Crotchety Old Fan on Science in Science FictionGrace on Low-Gravity Longevity?Bill on Science in Science [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] | Mike Brotherton: SF Writer on Science in Science FictionMeredith on Awesome Meteor Over AlbertaBy Popular Request &#8211; A. Bertram Chandler and More Harlan Ellison | The Crotchety Old Fan on Science in Science FictionGrace on Low-Gravity Longevity?Bill on Science in Science [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Crotchety Old Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/2008/11/by-popular-request-a-bertram-chandler-and-more-harlan-ellison/comment-page-1/#comment-6116</link>
		<dc:creator>The Crotchety Old Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/?p=3539#comment-6116</guid>
		<description>James,

respectfully, I think you are stretching things too far and are mistaking some science fiction tropes that have been adopted by the popular culture for a &#039;belief system&#039;.

Many of the works you refer to are, undoubtedly (especially so in the case of movies and television) fantasy rather than science fiction (Star Wars, for example); these feature rayguns, rocketships and robots and, although they &#039;look&#039; like (and sometimes act like) their SF counterparts, they are, in actuality, mere stereotyping, icons for &#039;the other&#039; or &#039;travel to foreign lands&#039; - standins for what in an earlier era would have been pirate ships and fairies.

One of the main problems for SF as literature, at least in the realm of gaining new readers, is the introduction of a multitude of unfamiliar concepts - faster than light travel, time dilation, time paradoxes, aliens that are more than just &#039;the other&#039;.  One spends a lifetime learning these concepts from context - but only if one is motivated to look beyond the icon and explore what it actually represents.  Asimov&#039;s Three Laws of Robotics, for example, go beyond the mere concept of a mechanical, autonomous being.  If one is treating the story as belief system, there is no need to look into the deeper, more important and meaningful aspects.  There would be no need to create such a thing as  the &#039;Three Laws&#039;.  The &#039;robot&#039; would be a mere cipher.

Anyone who is treating science fiction as a belief system is wading in the shallow end of the pond, playing with icons that are devoid of their actual reason for being and any real meaning.  

What you are seeing is an increased awareness of SF tropes and their wider use in our culture because they have become so pervasive through mass media - but you are not seeing &quot;science fiction&quot; becoming pervasive, nor is it developing into a belief system.  You&#039;re looking at shades, being manipulated by people who have little knowlege or appreciation for the genre itself.  By way of example - Vampires are &#039;hot&#039; right now; Twilight and its soon to be made sequels are replacing Harry Potter - but this is an affectation of the money mavens.  Popular fazes do not a belief system make.

Finally, if science fiction does engender some kind of belief system - wouldn&#039;t it have to have its own comprehensive definition?  Show me how and where numerous dystopian stories of the future jive with the utopian ones, or how tales of post-singularity humanity dove-tails with military space opera that&#039;s based, in large part, on stories from the days of sail and imperialism.  Does one just pick a single trope and build a life around it?  How does one use this belief system in their daily lives - when most of science fiction has not yet been realized technologically?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>respectfully, I think you are stretching things too far and are mistaking some science fiction tropes that have been adopted by the popular culture for a &#8216;belief system&#8217;.</p>
<p>Many of the works you refer to are, undoubtedly (especially so in the case of movies and television) fantasy rather than science fiction (Star Wars, for example); these feature rayguns, rocketships and robots and, although they &#8216;look&#8217; like (and sometimes act like) their SF counterparts, they are, in actuality, mere stereotyping, icons for &#8216;the other&#8217; or &#8216;travel to foreign lands&#8217; &#8211; standins for what in an earlier era would have been pirate ships and fairies.</p>
<p>One of the main problems for SF as literature, at least in the realm of gaining new readers, is the introduction of a multitude of unfamiliar concepts &#8211; faster than light travel, time dilation, time paradoxes, aliens that are more than just &#8216;the other&#8217;.  One spends a lifetime learning these concepts from context &#8211; but only if one is motivated to look beyond the icon and explore what it actually represents.  Asimov&#8217;s Three Laws of Robotics, for example, go beyond the mere concept of a mechanical, autonomous being.  If one is treating the story as belief system, there is no need to look into the deeper, more important and meaningful aspects.  There would be no need to create such a thing as  the &#8216;Three Laws&#8217;.  The &#8216;robot&#8217; would be a mere cipher.</p>
<p>Anyone who is treating science fiction as a belief system is wading in the shallow end of the pond, playing with icons that are devoid of their actual reason for being and any real meaning.  </p>
<p>What you are seeing is an increased awareness of SF tropes and their wider use in our culture because they have become so pervasive through mass media &#8211; but you are not seeing &#8220;science fiction&#8221; becoming pervasive, nor is it developing into a belief system.  You&#8217;re looking at shades, being manipulated by people who have little knowlege or appreciation for the genre itself.  By way of example &#8211; Vampires are &#8216;hot&#8217; right now; Twilight and its soon to be made sequels are replacing Harry Potter &#8211; but this is an affectation of the money mavens.  Popular fazes do not a belief system make.</p>
<p>Finally, if science fiction does engender some kind of belief system &#8211; wouldn&#8217;t it have to have its own comprehensive definition?  Show me how and where numerous dystopian stories of the future jive with the utopian ones, or how tales of post-singularity humanity dove-tails with military space opera that&#8217;s based, in large part, on stories from the days of sail and imperialism.  Does one just pick a single trope and build a life around it?  How does one use this belief system in their daily lives &#8211; when most of science fiction has not yet been realized technologically?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/2008/11/by-popular-request-a-bertram-chandler-and-more-harlan-ellison/comment-page-1/#comment-6115</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rimworlds.com/thecrotchetyoldfan/?p=3539#comment-6115</guid>
		<description>I agree completely, for some people science fiction is just a form of entertainment.  But as our culture evolves, there are certain science fictional concepts that have been accepted in the world at large that I think make up a belief system.  Whether they are true or not doesn&#039;t matter, people accept them.

For example, intelligent robots, aliens from other worlds, interstellar travel, time travel, homo sapiens 2.0, and so on.  If you look at children&#039;s books, movies, television shows, games, etc., you&#039;ll find all kinds of science fiction concepts embedded with no explanation.  They are taken for granted.  Who are teaching 4 year olds about space ships and robots?  Somehow they acquire those concepts with equal ease as dog and cats, gods and angels, cars and trucks.

Sure, science fiction is a form of entertainment that people seek out.  But the concepts of science fiction have flowed out of the entertainment and into culture.  Some people believe in those concepts.

Jim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely, for some people science fiction is just a form of entertainment.  But as our culture evolves, there are certain science fictional concepts that have been accepted in the world at large that I think make up a belief system.  Whether they are true or not doesn&#8217;t matter, people accept them.</p>
<p>For example, intelligent robots, aliens from other worlds, interstellar travel, time travel, homo sapiens 2.0, and so on.  If you look at children&#8217;s books, movies, television shows, games, etc., you&#8217;ll find all kinds of science fiction concepts embedded with no explanation.  They are taken for granted.  Who are teaching 4 year olds about space ships and robots?  Somehow they acquire those concepts with equal ease as dog and cats, gods and angels, cars and trucks.</p>
<p>Sure, science fiction is a form of entertainment that people seek out.  But the concepts of science fiction have flowed out of the entertainment and into culture.  Some people believe in those concepts.</p>
<p>Jim</p>
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